Thursday, 29 January 2009

Heat Wave

You think it's hot here at 45C?

Romans 6:23 (MSG)
23 Work hard for sin your whole life and your pension is death. But God's gift is real life, eternal life, delivered by Jesus, our Master.

31 comments:

David said...

Wait 'til you get to Hell.

Andre L. Burton said...

I received the following words from a friend. It caused me to readjust my thinking. Perhaps it will do the same here?

From The Inside Out


"When you feel the urge to be critical of someone else, look first within yourself. The weakness and shortcomings you perceive in another may very well be pointing to improvements you can make in you own life.

Instead of depending on others to change, or attempting to force them to do so, look for the positive changes that you can make. You'll always have much more success controlling your own life than you will have controlling others.

If you wish to live in a positive world, be a positive person. If you desire peace, then be completely at peace with yourself.

Life is a mirror that reflects your most authentic self back to you. It flows from the inside out.

The valuses and priorities that you live by will greatly influence the world that you live in. The thoughts and feelings you hold consistently on the inside will determine how life unfolds for you on the outside.

Allow peace, love, joy and fulfillment to flow from the inside out. Make your world the best it can be."

Annette said...

Yeah, it is hot here!

Sarah said...

yeah it's hot here yet the news is all about melbourne, what about adel!!??

no longer a theist said...

I can't tell if this post is supposed to be a joke, a threat or a warning - or perhaps all three?

If it's a joke, it's only funny to insiders, if at all. Outsiders find it puerile, at best - perhaps the Christian equivalent of bathroom humor.

If it's a threat, it contradicts the Christian claim that their/your God is love.

If it's a warning, see the previous comment about the threat, as it applies here, too.

Cameron Horsburgh said...

No longer a theist said:

I can't tell if this post is supposed to be a joke, a threat or a warning - or perhaps all three?

I took it as the sort of thing people say on really hot days. I follow a few blogs by people in, um, heat affected areas, and I've noticed that things haven't come out as intended over the last few days.

I'm not sure Jim even knew what he meant!

David said...

To answer "no longer a theist":

It's a threat. Believe the Salvo way, or else.

It's also humor. Christians in heaven will be laughing at you in hell.

God still loves people in Hell - no contradiction there.

Anonymous said...

All of this over a blog post about the weather!

Good grief

Anonymous said...

It's a real threat:- Believe the Christian way or else. The salvation amry is only on expression of the christian faith

It's a joke:- Not really

It's agreement:- God does love people in Hell

John Duthie said...

A big hello to everyone who uses their actual names when replying to posts. Its nice to know who you are talking to. It also keeps the level of conversation at a polite level.

I'm a Christian, and to tell you the truth I don't believe in Hell.

If God exists then he loves us all.

Why would you hate something you have made and punish them ?

I dislike the use of Hell as some sort of threat to the unbeliever for them to come to faith, or used to keep the believer in line.

So to Hell with Hell !

God is good. And its great we can talk about this on the net.

David said...

How can you be a Christian and not believe in Hell?

Christians have believed in Hell for centuries, and along comes Mr new-age John Duthie with his soft and cuddly version.

Which Christian is right? Or is the Holy Spirit playing funny buggers?

Anonymous said...

To John,

Why did Christ die and suffer upon the cross, and rise again, if there is no Hell and God loves all? Seems a waste of time to me. By the way good Doctor Who character for your image.

John Duthie said...

David, the threat of going to Hell has been one of the main marketing techniques used by the church in the past few centuries. It no longer works on society today.

Anonymous, Does Hell contain babies and children who have died at a young age before having opportunity to accept Jesus ? The doctor who image and the relation to this thread is just co-incidental :-)

no longer a theist said...

"Why did Christ die and suffer upon the cross, and rise again, if there is no Hell and God loves all?"

Was that a Freudian slip? Did you intend to imply that God doesn't actually love all, which is why most people will end up in hell (if Christianity has it right)? I'll say this for you, at least you're honest about God's selectivity. Of course, that makes you more Calvinist than Wesleyan, which puts you outside of the Salvo mainstream.

Bev from adelaide said...

I am but a follower of Jesus, I have no right to judge who will or who won't get to heaven.

What I know is My Saviour willingly walked to the Cross for my very soul so I could be saved from death. My Jesus shed His precious blood for MY LIFE, For ME.
No matter what it is all about Jesus.......What He has done for me , He has done for you....The judgement is His alone.

His Grace to the heat of any circumstance is a winning formula.

Anonymous said...

Like i said, good grief!

JJJIIIMMMMMM, intervention please!!!!!!

Jim Knaggs said...

WORDsearchhell
NIV
Mt 5:22
Murder
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mt 5:29
Adultery
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mt 5:30
Adultery
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mt 10:28
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mt 16:18
Peter's Confession of Christ
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mt 18:9
The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven
9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mt 23:15
Seven Woes
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mt 23:33
Seven Woes
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mk 9:43
Causing to Sin
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mk 9:45
Causing to Sin
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mk 9:46
Causing to Sin
46

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Mk 9:47
Causing to Sin
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Lk 12:5
Warnings and Encouragement's
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Lk 16:23
The Rich Man and Lazarus
23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
Jas 3:6
Taming the Tongue
6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NIV
2Pe 2:4
False Teachers and Their Destruction
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cameron Horsburgh said...

Great list, Jim.

The problem I have is that a lot of those verses teach something other than the traditional (i.e. what I learned in Corps Cadets) view of hell. Some verses call it a place of eternal torment and/or punishment; others call it a holding cell for angels who are to be judged; and yet others suggest that hell actually has an influence in human affairs now. I don't remember reading that before.

Part of the problem is that many of those instances of 'hell' are translations of Greek words that mean something other than a place of eternal torment. For example, 'Hades' can just be a euphemism for 'death.'

My thinking on the matter revolves around a couple of points:

1) God's love and God's wrath are always present and aren't opposed to one another. God doesn't go from being loving to wrathful and back again. Therefore, judgment and 'sentencing to hell' are not at odds with God's love.

2) Consignment to infinite torture does not seem to be a just response to a finite amount of sin. (The validity of this point relies on particular views of 'eternity' and 'infinity.')

Personally, I suspect that the wages of sin is death---in other words, sinners aren't resurrected. Or if they are, the 'second death' is just that. I know there are Bible verses which suggest otherwise, but there are passages which support my view, too.

I really don't think it matters, though. The Scriptures are quite clear that you will have far better prospects in the afterlife if you are saved by God's grace than if you aren't. I tend to agree with John---a big reason the doctrine of hell has hung around so long isn't that the Bible is clear about it, but because we don't want to lose one of our biggest threats to non-Christians. After all, we can't sell fire insurance if there's no threat of fire!

(Just for the record: I don't think what I have said is at variance with Salvation Army doctrine. The eleventh doctrine speaks of 'endless punishment of the wicked.' Death is endless for those out of grace. If it said 'endless torment' I might have a problem!)

Oh, and on the weather---here in Colac we're not forecast to go any higher than 31 this week. I'll be thinking of you all ;-)

Jack said...

So Jim, you've given lots of verses that speak of hell, but as Cameron has stated the word 'hell' has several different meanings. What do you believe yourself? Do you believe that all those people that do not repent of their sins and believe that Jesus is God will be eternally tortured after their death? If you believe this, do you also really believe it to be justice (eternal torture for finite sins)?

Anonymous said...

There is no point pointing the finger at Jim. He has just provided a resource of what the word of God says. Simple!

Beleive it or don't. Repentance is the way to avoid whatever "hell" actually is. Jesus wants you to embrace it with the free will He has given you. He could have created a race of robots, but He created people with free will, intelligence, to choose and embrace Him freely. That is how much He loves you. When we have been hurt, tormented, abused, we arent able to accept the concept of eternal punishment. Ask for deep healing of your hurts, and wounds, & you will be able to embrace the fullness of the gospel.

I know most of you wont like what i have said, so i invite you to begin your own blogs, so we can comment on your theology and philosophy, in the freedom that you do so in salvo blogs.

Peace to you, salvationist in tas.

no longer a theist said...

Anonymous said, "There is no pointing the finger at Jim."

I don't want to offend anyone and, as far as I can see from this thread, nobody is pointing fingers at Jim or anyone else. We're simply engaging in an interesting dialog in which different points of view have been expressed. I respect Jim for allowing the dialog to go on as it has. We've discovered that different people, even within the Body of Christ, have different concepts of hell. That's not Jim's fault, nor do I expect him to use his blog as a platform for resolving profound theological questions.

Having said that, I'll note that Jim raised the issue by referring to the Christian insider's joke, "So, you think it's hot here, wait 'til you get to Hell!" He provided the setup line and David knowingly completed the punch line. I doubt that anyone seriously believed that this post was simply about the weather - especially considering the scripture verse that accompanied it. I simply wanted to remind Jim and his readers that the joke is profoundly offensive to non-Christians. I recognize that Salvationists often don't care that the gospel is offensive to some, since the Bible teaches that it will be. I just thought that it wouldn't hurt to point out one instance of the offense, just in case it matters to Jim or anyone who reads his blog.

Anonymous also said "Ask for deep healing of your hurts, and wounds, & you will be able to embrace the fullness of the gospel."

All I ask is that Christians refrain from assuming that the primary reason nonbelievers don't believe in God is because we have been hurt by life circumstances or people. That may be true for some nonbelievers, but it certainly is not true for all of us. Many of us have examined evidence, including scriptures and theologies, and found it wanting. That's all I'll say about that matter, as this certainly is not an appropriate venue for further discussion of that issue. As Anonymous noted, we have, or can start, our own blogs to discuss those matters with those who are interested in such discussions.

Jack said...

I'm not pointing any fingers Salvo in Tas, I'm asking Jim to articulate what he believes. But perhaps I should just withdraw the questions, as he really has no choice in his position - he must publiclly stick with the mainstream party line (hell is eternal torture), regardless of what he may personally believe.

I have had conversations with a number of officers who privately express at least some concerns over the eternal torture idea, but really can't talk about it publicly because it goes against that party line.

So I'll ask you Salvo in Tas, do you believe eternal torure as punishment for finite sins is just? If yes, do you see any conflict between this and the 'how much He loves you" idea?

Anonymous said...

From its earliest the church has wondered about the desiny of those who have not heard the gospel as well as the means and extent of God's saving work in Christ. Numerous positions, both wide and narrow are available - some of which we see above. A proposal might go like this: that our death we all meet Christ and our responce to him is consitent with the manner in which we were respopnding to God in the last moments of our conscious life with regard to whatever revelation God had given us of himself. Paladin

no longer a theist said...

David,

The reason some non-Christians are offended by the concept of hell has nothing to do with a fear of something in which we don't believe.

The reason for offense is that the doctrine of hell enables Christians to think that we who don't share their beliefs deserve to be punished (by some means) forever - which is pretty harsh, for what is essentially nothing more than a thought-crime. Unfortunately, such thinking occasionally leads to smug attitudes.

Anonymous said...

It seems to be ok for everyone here in this forum to make assuptions about Jim, about salvationists, about the church and christians???????? It doesnt matter what Jim or i or any other salvationist says, it will always somehow be "wrong", (to some).

My comment about those who have been abused etc etc, has come from my own experience both being a non christian and a christian. If you arent hurt, then praise God. Hes given you a clean slate from which to work with.

Jack, i can understand where you are coming from. Im really not trying to be patrionising. I cant speak for God. I think that each person has their own journey to go through, and at the end of the day, its between us and God as to weather we will end up in one place or another. He is the One who weighs our hearts/our motivations and yes our sins. I cant say weather someone stealing a book will instantly go to hell. We cannot judge that way. Yes i can understand the contradiction in what i have just said. It makes no logical sense. Having faith makes no sense to our natural minds. However If God were such an unjust and cruel God He would not have made a way of escape through Jesus. Through His blood, through repentance. He is the way, the truth and the life. It does say that He goes out to look for the lost sheep, and He desires that not one perishes. But we have to walk after Him. I know thats hard to comprehend and understand. Ive discovered that sometimes with God there are no direct answers, as blatant as what Jim provided, sometimes you need to read between the lines. For example; when He talks about love, He talks about what it is NOT........ seek it out!

There is a context which needs to be captured apart from just "is there or not a hell?" It started at the beginning, when certain ones disobeyed,which placed into action a serious of events. There are reasons because of why it is now. Its not just, "Jack and David give me the willys, im creating a hell!" Its not that black and white. You cant take one part, without the context of the other.

There is a recording called "23 minutes of hell". Im not sure if its available on line, but it is a first hand encounter of hell. That may be interesting to listen to. I guess that will stir up the pot!!!

Said in the honest love of Christ to you. Peace, salvationist in tas.

Jack said...

Salvo in Tas, "23 Minutes in Hell" is a book written by a man who I think just had a very scary dream and has managed to make a lot of money out of gullible Christians. If hell is truly a place of eternal torture, no one deserves to go there, not even the most monstrous figures in history. Yet according to standard Christian doctrine, the majority of people on earth are going there. A 'God' that allows such a place to exist, allows people to be born knowing that will be their fate, is truly evil.

Jim Knaggs said...

From J.I. Packer: "Scripture sees hell as self-chosen; those in hell will realize that they sentenced themselves to it by loving darkness rather than light, choosing not to have their Creator as their Lord, preferring self-indulgent sin to self-denying righteousness, and (if they encountered the gospel) rejecting Jesus rather than coming to him (John 3:18-21; Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28, 32; 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:9-11). General revelation confronts all mankind with this issue, and from this standpoint hell appears as God's gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshiping him, or without God forever, worshiping themselves. Those who are in hell will know not only that for their doings they deserve it but also that in their hearts they chose it.
The purpose of Bible teaching about hell is to make us appreciate, thankfully embrace, and rationally prefer the grace of Christ that saves us from it (Matt. 5:29-30; 13:48-50). It is really a mercy to mankind that God in Scripture is so explicit about hell. We cannot now say that we have not been warned."
Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs.

JDK said...

And I thought the "Women in Ministry" post had stirred up some comments ;-)

Cameron Horsburgh said...

I find it amusing that hat is probably Jim's shortest post of all time has drawn the longest discussion!

Jack said...

Jason & Cameron you wacky liberals, can you find me some true blue fundies that will tell me how I deserve to burn forever? Are they too busy unpacking at the training college?

John Duthie said...

Its great we can chat like this, and agree to disagree.

To the TC, you are very clever in your replies, and maybe that is why you are the TC :-)

You replied with
1) a list of bible verses
2) a quote from someone else

Thats a sure way of avoiding having to share your views and getting 1/2 the people offside :-)

There are numerous mentions of Hell in the bible, thats for sure, and what might you need to do to get there, I just find that sometimes God reminds me of a person with manic depression.

God can't make his mind up as to whether He wants to send us to Hell or Heaven.

I don't mean any offence to God or anyone else with this discussion, its just hard to understand a God who loves everyone, and who inspired mankind to make a list of behaviours that will condemn someone to Hell ( whatever that is ).

And Jack, thanks for your comments, I've been critical in the past of cadets that go to training college, thinking they are all fundamentalists, especially after the training is over, however I've noticed that some of the ex cadets ( now officers ) are a little more liberal than I had expected. Its almost as if the cadets know they have to act like fundamentalists to pass training college, and then when they get out, they are then free to be a little more liberal, and they do great things for God.